tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post4451948526533698819..comments2023-11-02T09:08:09.242-07:00Comments on <i>Daddy Dialectic</i>: The Failure of SuccessJeremy Adam Smithhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11733669114207985920noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-75654410758783814762009-02-17T00:22:00.000-08:002009-02-17T00:22:00.000-08:00Although I, too, have often succumbed to the press...Although I, too, have often succumbed to the pressure placed on middle class parents, I tend to agree with Daisy. Concerted cultivation ultimately produces selfish, self-absorbed adults who are out of touch with most of humanity. Perhaps they are or will be materially successful. But in the long run it is hard to believe that they can create anything of value. Too much parental coddling, and control and manipulation of the environment cannot be conducive to raising children who develop imagination, character, and empathy for others. I shudder to think what the world will be like if these "concertedly cultivated" kids grow up to be the leaders of tomorrow!lee665https://www.blogger.com/profile/12066744293763842675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-24882905471713892882009-02-05T20:15:00.000-08:002009-02-05T20:15:00.000-08:00MissLaura: You're right! It seems I mistyped once ...MissLaura: You're right! It seems I mistyped once and the error replicated itself throughout. I fixed it.Jeremy Adam Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11733669114207985920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-78245118237058641502009-02-05T12:05:00.000-08:002009-02-05T12:05:00.000-08:00There are also those of us who would like to be th...There are also those of us who would like to be the kind of parents who send their kid to enrichment classes but live in places where there aren't any.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-55997237781675268612009-02-05T11:33:00.000-08:002009-02-05T11:33:00.000-08:00N.B. It's actually concerted cultivation, not conc...N.B. It's actually concerted cultivation, not concerned. As in it's about the effort this form of cultivation entails.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12254684034889209176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-3904247623582610412009-01-25T10:50:00.000-08:002009-01-25T10:50:00.000-08:00let's hope our new president does a good job deali...<I>let's hope our new president does a good job dealing with these inequalities... although I don't think he'll break up the snob-education racket and send the kids to the countryside to farm, as Mao did.</I><BR/><BR/>I suspect that the number of people in China who would not approve of this neo-Maoist approach might slightly outnumber the number of American "working class people" who "roundly hate" the snob-education racket.<BR/><BR/>Anyone can opt-out of the education arms race if they so chose, but the facts are that educational attainment links to earning power, and also drives the innovation that generates the national wealth that then gives a society the option to redistribute it in ways that might improve education systems for all.<BR/><BR/>Concentration camps don't have that benefit, as the Chinese have figured out.chicago pophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17055796523227869734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-57388993101250827822009-01-25T07:40:00.000-08:002009-01-25T07:40:00.000-08:00Is it time to play "More Left Than Thou"? Because ...Is it time to play "More Left Than Thou"? Because I forgot my copy of Das Kapital. It's around here somewhere....oh, right, here it is, right under "Goodnight Moon" and "The Very Hungry Caterpillar." Hmmm. Boy, this looks hard to read. I think I'll just hum L'Internationale instead.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-82809798695569692622009-01-24T20:57:00.000-08:002009-01-24T20:57:00.000-08:00Daisy, you totally misread that post.Daisy, you totally misread that post.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-15165252575152018522009-01-24T09:21:00.000-08:002009-01-24T09:21:00.000-08:00Your post makes me want to sing a few verses of L'...Your post makes me want to sing a few verses of <I>L'Internationale</I>... some of us consider this "entitlement" the problem, not the solution. Certainly, it is nothing to ENCOURAGE, as you seem so happy to do. <BR/><BR/>Sending these spoiled kids to the countryside, as Chairman Mao would have done, doesn't seem like a half-bad idea. Let them ask some questions of the commune director, and see what happens.<BR/><BR/><I>This, writes Lareau, produced children who were more independent and better behaved, but also (paradoxically?) more passive, especially in the face of authority.</I><BR/><BR/>If they are working class, their parents have wordlessly communicated to them <I>the necessity</I> of being passive in the face of authority... this likely had little to do with the style of their upbringing. This is a matter of <I>self-preservation</I> if one is working class or minority and an important lesson that MUST be learned for survival. <BR/><BR/><I> murderous world of applying for kindergarten in San Francisco</I><BR/><BR/>APPLYING for KINDERGARTEN? That's just gross. <BR/><BR/><I>(((Takes out Lenin, starts reading))) </I><BR/><BR/>I guess it's beyond the pale to ask why public (or cheap parochial) school is out of the question? Just wondered: why do you call yourself "egalitarian" in your self-description, when you are proudly raising your child to be an elitist snob?<BR/><BR/>One type of education is GETTING ALONG WITH PEOPLE NOT LIKE YOURSELF, and I notice the privileged white kids from the highfalutin private schools don't usually know how to do that when you take them out of their overprotected element. Isn't <I>that</I> an education you'd like your child to get, too? (Or have you already planned on your child living an overprotected, gated-community life?)<BR/><BR/> <I> There, says my friend, there is no parent involvement, no reporting, very little structure, and no enrichment. The parents drop the kids off, they play for much of the day, and the parents pick them up. This is more akin to daycare, not preschool, which is the more common arrangement for working parents.</I><BR/><BR/>Aside from the Mickey Mouse tattling every time the kid took a fart, I would say this is a mostly matter of nomenclature... my kid came home from her non-enrichment day care knowing all about the latest country, gospel and hip-hop music. Just because something isn't helpfully tagged "enrichment" by the elitist-powers-that-be, doesn't mean it isn't. My gringo grandchild in Texas is learning to speak Spanish in daycare, from the workers there... is that "enrichment"--or does it need to have photos of her holding up Spanish words for it to officially count?<BR/><BR/>There is <I>nothing worse</I> than a super-precious rich kid that has been hovered-over their whole life, and has therefore developed NO boundaries ... thus believing their inner life and every wayward thought is as interesting to everyone else as it is to them. <BR/><BR/><I>On the other hand, feeling guilty about one’s privilege is not helpful; your guilty feelings don’t make one damn bit of difference for low-income families.</I><BR/><BR/>Well, that conveniently leaves you off the hook for your snobbery, doesn't it?<BR/><BR/>FTR, I do agree with you that 1) homeschooling <I>en masse</I> is a bad idea, and 2) let's hope our new president does a good job dealing with these inequalities... although I don't think he'll break up the snob-education racket and send the kids to the countryside to farm, as Mao did. Too bad!<BR/><BR/>When kids grow up with the sense of entitlement that you are describing, the only thing that will wake them up is when they become adults and are roundly <I>hated</I> by most working class people (still the majority in the USA)...then they MIGHT get a clue. <BR/><BR/>Then again, you write this classist stuff with nary a hint of embarrassment, so I dunno...<BR/><BR/><I>(((sings second and third verses)))</I>Daisy Deadheadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17993200276152025235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-60630557926147550012009-01-21T09:24:00.000-08:002009-01-21T09:24:00.000-08:00Oh, yes, those factors are critical to Gladwell's ...Oh, yes, those factors are critical to Gladwell's argument; the story you tell is one he tells in the book. And I think that's one of the reasons why I like this book much better than his others--it really contains a very progressive message about why and how to create opportunity for all, but he delivers it using the most mainstream, business-book language imaginable.Jeremy Adam Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11733669114207985920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-78026730370850532472009-01-21T09:16:00.000-08:002009-01-21T09:16:00.000-08:00I haven't read Gladwell's book, so I don't know wh...I haven't read Gladwell's book, so I don't know what he says about "how so many disadvantaged, working-class Jewish immigrants in NYC emerged as cultural, legal, and financial powerhouses by the middle of the 20th century." But I can say that my grandparents were precisely such disadvantaged working-class Jewish immigrants in NYC, and I think there was a critical public investment that was the key to my family's moving from working class to upper-middle class - my grandfather was able to attend City College for free. That propelled him to a career as a lawyer and an accountant, quite a journey from where he otherwise would have stayed, working in his parents' bakery on the Lower East Side. <BR/><BR/>So while there certainly was some bootstrap-pulling, without that decision to invest public dollars in free higher education, a good chunk of a generation of immigrants would not have had that social and economic mobility. <BR/><BR/>The GI Bill did much the same thing for returning soldiers (at least white soldiers) after WWII. <BR/><BR/>A useful object lesson for our times and for the new administration. Not to make this crudely about politics or anything. :-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-41258428675851422952009-01-20T15:10:00.000-08:002009-01-20T15:10:00.000-08:00These are all wonderfully thoughtful responses. No...These are all wonderfully thoughtful responses. Not even sure where to begin in my own reply. <BR/><BR/>To Backpacking and Bookish Dads, and Alex: I zeroed in on the Lareau section because it resonated with my own experience, but Gladwell's case is much more complex than this one example suggests (he is, by the way, guilty of reductionism, but I think his argument still works). Outliers emerge in all sorts of circumstances, there's no formula; Gladwell devotes an entire chapter to how so many disadvantaged, working-class Jewish immigrants in NYC emerged as cultural, legal, and financial powerhouses by the middle of the 20th century. Talent, sure; hard work, of course; but that talent and hard work might have gone to waste without various accidents of economy and demography. <BR/><BR/>Fruits of our neighbors: Sure, I agree one shouldn't use one's kids as a political statement. If Liko doesn't get into a suitable public school, we'll seek another arrangement. <BR/><BR/>But promoting homeschooling as a solution to failing schools is a social and political activity, and I've seen homeschooling hitched up to quite a few political agendas. The one with which I'm most familiar is the conservative argument that the Christian family should be the cornerstone of society and the economy; this view promotes homeschooling as an alternative to secular, cosmopolitan, scientific education. <BR/><BR/>I'm not saying that you are in that camp; I know that parents bring many agendas and motivations to homeschooling, and that for many families, it's the perfect solution. You just won't see me promoting it as an alternative for our society; my personal activism (such as it is, these days) is dedicated to fixing public schools.Jeremy Adam Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11733669114207985920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-9355500837890590122009-01-20T14:39:00.000-08:002009-01-20T14:39:00.000-08:00I can't help but wonder, reading about Gladwell's ...I can't help but wonder, reading about Gladwell's model-based on Lareau's research-as presented on Daddy Dialectic, if this is as much a sign of the times as an insight into the laws of social dynamics. <BR/><BR/>I say that because I'm always bumping into peers who were raised in the 70s and 80s and who are astounded at how much busier and more programmed kids are today. Will they be more successful as a result, or do they simply have to work harder to preserve their advantages? I was raised by two professional parents, one of whom was an academic, and yet I spent loads of time playing in the drainage ditch and doing unsupervised things with firecrackers. Now, I'm not famous or rich, but moderately happy, and so consider myself to be, therefore, loosely, "successful."<BR/><BR/>The working class natural model seems fairly static to me, and sort of goes against the (perhaps equally stereotypical) notion of immigrant striving and elbow sharpening in crowded tenements that led to so many stories from the 30s and 40s of people meeting someone who knew someone who landed them a job at the city newspaper desk, the bank, driving a truck for a furniture company, and next thing you know they are editors of the Tribune or a major import-export company or CEO of Lehman Bros (RIP).<BR/><BR/>It seems like half the story is a function of reduced opportunities across the board, which allow less play for chance, in which case the meticulous grooming that is so striking among educated middle class families becomes both more conspicuous and more decisive.<BR/> <BR/>Random thoughts from someone who was formerly known on this blog as chicago pop.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-69978998057103426662009-01-20T09:50:00.000-08:002009-01-20T09:50:00.000-08:00great post, as always, and right on target for tod...great post, as always, and right on target for today, inauguration day.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-79039490848252235842009-01-20T09:00:00.000-08:002009-01-20T09:00:00.000-08:00Hi Jeremy - I don't want to turn this into a publi...Hi Jeremy - <BR/><BR/>I don't want to turn this into a public v home school debate, but one point struck me while reading this otherwise excellent piece.<BR/><BR/>First you say:<BR/><BR/>"But my real problem with homeschooling as a movement is that it's not a solution to inequality of opportunity in our society."<BR/><BR/>But then you say:<BR/><BR/>"To really make a difference, middle- and upper-income parents need to pay their fair share of taxes and vote for politicians..."<BR/><BR/>As I've mentioned before, we do the unschooling thing with our daughter (I'm the primary caregiver). I'm a strong supporter of public schools and public school teachers. Every time our county (Multnomah, Oregon) floats a levy to help fund public schools, I vote for it. I consider a strong public school system to be valuable to the country, and support politicians who agree with me.<BR/><BR/>But what I can't abide is using my child as a political statement. (Admittedly, you do say the homeschooling "movement", not homeschooling in individual practice.) Thinking like an elitist, I could say that if my child were in public schools, I would participate and push more, advocating for the betterment of public schools. But I consider that irresponsible and disrespectful to my child to use her like that. Thinking about her purely selfish needs, she won't be any better off in public schools than if she was home/unschooled. In fact, she may be worse off. Her personal needs are always more important than any activism.<BR/><BR/>I like this piece overall very much. But you might consider cleaning up that juxtaposition. What do you think?Nat Westhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15579830055646831396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-79412365475609985182009-01-20T06:32:00.000-08:002009-01-20T06:32:00.000-08:00Interesting, as always, Jeremy. I might just have ...Interesting, as always, Jeremy. I might just have to read Outliers after all - I'd come to dismiss Mr. Gladwell as a bit of a reductionist hack, even though I found The Tipping Point fascinating. <BR/><BR/>The dynamic you described is a drama being played out at my son's school. He's in kindergarten at a public school in the large city in which we live. The school system in general, as you can imagine, is reflective of white flight - it's about 13% white, 39% black, 37% hispanic, 9% asian, and 3% multiracial or "other." <BR/><BR/>Yet my son's school has become of the new "hot" ones for white upper-middle class parents in the City, meaning that the percentage of white students is going up dramatically. There is a widely-recognized phenomenon in our city, in which once a school gets "hot" with such parents, they tend to "take over" the parental involvement. The conscious cultivation/helicopter parenting probably results in them being pushier, liable to jump at leadership roles/volunteer opporunities, and no doubt leads to a cultural shift in the tone of things like parent council meetings. The involvement of middle/working class parents and parents of color tends to go down fairly noticeably. Most schools recognize this and try to deal with it, but not very successfully so far. <BR/><BR/>It's deeply ironic and of course a huge problem -- one with no immediate apparent quick fixes. It's sort of a form of education-gentrification. The parallel is apt because schools often get "hot" after years of middle and working class parents, teachers and principals, working to improve them. <BR/><BR/>So I'm curious how the phenomenon Gladwell identifies affects not just individual achievement, which is what he appears to focus on, from Jeremy's description -- but how does it affect interactions between parents and kids from different economic and social classes, not to mention different cultures?<BR/><BR/>We have the resources to send our kids to swim classes, art classes, etc on the weekends, to take them to concerts and plays and museums. I wonder how this will affect our son's interactions, to say nothing of friendships, with kids whose parents can't do any of that?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-70981031756057482122009-01-19T22:06:00.000-08:002009-01-19T22:06:00.000-08:00This is really interesting to me, because I immedi...This is really interesting to me, because I immediately thought to myself "Well, <I>I</I> didn't come from a middle class family with an active acculturation philosophy of parenting and that has had nothing to do with my successes or failures." And then I thought "I bet a lot of children from lower-class families can tell a similar story, enough of them that they'd be unwilling to consider this point from Gladwell to be a valid one." And then I thought "I wonder how many of those successes-despite-class-philosophy stories also involve alcoholism or substance abuse?"<BR/><BR/>Because there is a trope, a role, in addict families commonly called the "hero". This is the kid (or sometimes a spouse) who overperforms, overachieves, over-everythings, to try to matter more than the addiction. They become independently successful, independently entitled (they are good enough to overcome their circumstances, and with that comes a lot of pride and feeling of entitlement, though not quite the same), and rebelliously invested in the culture and accomplishments of the mainstream.<BR/><BR/>So I wonder how many of those who might dismiss Gladwell's point because they see themselves as successful despite their origins are also these sociological heroes, outliers themselves who confound the statistical analysis.Backpacking Dadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02498905428420679901noreply@blogger.com