tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post115089784057118957..comments2023-11-02T09:08:09.242-07:00Comments on <i>Daddy Dialectic</i>: Hirshman's "feminism" as masculinist ideologyJeremy Adam Smithhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11733669114207985920noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-55777052129869434572013-04-01T19:05:51.846-07:002013-04-01T19:05:51.846-07:00Hi there! Found you by way of Blue Milk and I abso...Hi there! Found you by way of Blue Milk and I absolutely agree with you. I think that -- beyond feminism -- Hirshman's argument is bad for the environment and our collective future. If "caring" is bad and we need to work, work, work and grow, grow, grow, it seems sustainability isn't given much thought.<br /><br />I'm new here, but given what I've seen so far on wealth, work, and life, I was reminded of this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HR-YrD_KB0M.Celiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08194885479661538659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-68786338132574605582010-09-06T22:20:45.395-07:002010-09-06T22:20:45.395-07:00fsybrweqynowbuwkswdsv. http://www.acnetreatment2k....fsybrweqynowbuwkswdsv. http://www.acnetreatment2k.com/ - acne treatment<br /> arwnoxAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-4131403659321774012007-06-12T19:52:00.000-07:002007-06-12T19:52:00.000-07:00i sort of want to frame this post and present it t...i sort of want to frame this post and present it to potential fathers of my someday children. If they get it, they can proceed to the next level, if not NEXT.<BR/><BR/>Which is to say-brilliant! and Thank You! I am very much a feminist but I have no interest in turning into a power hungry corporate robot thank you very much.k8https://www.blogger.com/profile/11840786903333344189noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-1152111352633978092006-07-05T07:55:00.000-07:002006-07-05T07:55:00.000-07:00averagedrinker, I don't think there's actually any...averagedrinker, I don't think there's actually any "essence" of being a man or woman. What I do believe however is that for both moms and dads, taking care of our kids, spending time with them especially when they are little, has value in and of itself.<BR/><BR/>I understand that for some people, both men and women, their careers are going to be their priorities. That's fine. But I think that we need to accept that for many of us, activities such as caring, which is not valued in our society, which are in fact de-valued, actually have real value and meaning for people.<BR/><BR/>The problem with Hirshman is that she buys into the wider society's single focus on "success" in material terms, and very much denigrates caring. As a father and a guy, I have a problem with that. Because she in effect, despite claims to the contrary, wants to trap us, guys included, into the existing highly competitive structures that don't value caring.Chiphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01503422107908380716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-1151496666059475652006-06-28T05:11:00.000-07:002006-06-28T05:11:00.000-07:00Thanks Nina.BTW, for anyone interested in more dis...Thanks Nina.<BR/><BR/>BTW, for anyone interested in more discussion of this post, over at my blog Daddychip2 there are <A HREF="http://daddychip2.blogspot.com/2006/06/hirshmans-feminism-as-masculinist.html#comments" REL="nofollow">more comments on this post</A>, be sure to check them out!Chiphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01503422107908380716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-1151287387594587582006-06-25T19:03:00.000-07:002006-06-25T19:03:00.000-07:00daddy in a strange land sent me over here. what a...daddy in a strange land sent me over here. what a great response! I wondered in my comment to the Blogging Baby post about her new work about where the SAHD's fall in her theories, and it's great to hear from one. <BR/><BR/>I wrote a response to her on my and my husband's blog too, but I just got all up and angry - your response is so much more thoughtful. I wish Hirshman would read it. =PAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-1151152348410957172006-06-24T05:32:00.000-07:002006-06-24T05:32:00.000-07:00thanks mom101. Yeah, it really p'd me off too, and...thanks mom101. Yeah, it really p'd me off too, and her stuff has been doing that for a while. I finally decided to sit down and write about why. And I think you are right, she only values work that is paid, reflecting of course the masculinist value hierarchy!Chiphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01503422107908380716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-1151109876531450212006-06-23T17:44:00.000-07:002006-06-23T17:44:00.000-07:00This is outstanding. Truly. You said it as I would...This is outstanding. Truly. You said it as I would only a million times better, because I'm not always so articulate when I'm shaking with rage. <BR/><BR/>I wonder why it is that she only sees value in paid work. I suppose she also thinks that the more you're paid, the more valuable you are.Mom101https://www.blogger.com/profile/15468524489744839899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-1151072237624757282006-06-23T07:17:00.000-07:002006-06-23T07:17:00.000-07:00Helen, I don't think she's really on the left, giv...Helen, I don't think she's really on the left, given her privileging of elitist views on status, etc. as well as the reason you point to. To be fair though I don't think she's anywhere near as evil as A.C. either; she has not yet called for the extermination of those who disagree with her politically, nor for any government officials. She does unfortunately mirror some of the less violent intolerance that is seen on the right.Chiphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01503422107908380716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-1151026292315350062006-06-22T18:31:00.000-07:002006-06-22T18:31:00.000-07:00Marrit:I don't like that she never questions the v...Marrit:<BR/><BR/>I don't like that she never questions the values of the American workplace and equates women's empowerment with class power.... She's like the Ann Coulter of the left. <BR/><BR/>The classist nature and support of corporate world value as is would seem to negate any left leaning credits she may posess IMO.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-1151009960806134042006-06-22T13:59:00.000-07:002006-06-22T13:59:00.000-07:00thanks Lumpyheadsmom!marrit, yeah, the way she rep...thanks Lumpyheadsmom!<BR/><BR/>marrit, yeah, the way she repeatedly and so disingenuously attacks and has attacked Miriam, and Miriam's own experiences of her, really do not lead me to trust Hirshman as a person. But in this essay I stuck to the ideas she's been peddling. I do thing, however, that her refusal to engage on the actual ideas, and her resort to ad hominem attacks is an indication that she knows how weak her position actually is.<BR/><BR/>Jeremy, I don't think the issue is that everyone should just quit their jobs or abandon ambitions. The issue is that we need to accept that there are values that are important to us that don't fall under the traditional standards of "success." So ambition, but also caring. Different people will come up with different balances. My problem with Hirshman is her attacks and ridicule of people who seek their own balance, because they don't buy 100% into Hirshman's masculinist and classist visions. And as you point out, Hirshman doesn't get us anywhere productive in our attempts to deal with the issues of real life.Chiphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01503422107908380716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-1150997823058376092006-06-22T10:37:00.000-07:002006-06-22T10:37:00.000-07:00"My husband and I gave up all the things Hirshman ..."My husband and I gave up all the things Hirshman lauds in order to live a fuller life in a small-ish town in Oregon. It had partly to do with the kids but was more about, you know, *living* instead of succeeding..."<BR/><BR/>Very nicely put. This has become THE issue in my life since my son was born. I've thought about blogging on it, and have in coded, policy-oriented ways, but since I have so little personal clarity I've so far just stewed in private. <BR/><BR/>In my past life I was a professional leftist and nonprofit executive, not a corporate drone, but in many ways the demands were the same and my life was no different from anyone else who lives for work. For the first year after Liko was born I felt so torn, as everything I worked and hoped for seemed suddenly less important and my priorities shifted. <BR/><BR/>Big changes have happened, but I still cling to my work and work identity and to San Francisco, the second most expensive city in the country. I can't seem to entirely put my ambitions aside, and the pressure to make money is relentless. We hold it at bay, but our financial future haunts me at night.<BR/><BR/>Well, as I said, no solutions here. Just trying to figure it out and work through a process. Hirshman is no help at all!Jeremy Adam Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11733669114207985920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-1150996357451938842006-06-22T10:12:00.000-07:002006-06-22T10:12:00.000-07:00THANK YOU. I've had a hard time articulating why L...THANK YOU. I've had a hard time articulating why Linda Hirshman bothers me so without inadvertently reinforcing her argument. I don't like that she never questions the values of the American workplace and equates women's empowerment with class power. I also dislike the way she tears into people personally, with ad hominem (or is it ad feminam?) attacks on those who disagree with her civilly (such as Miriam Peskowitz). She's like the Ann Coulter of the left.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-1150982913109621022006-06-22T06:28:00.000-07:002006-06-22T06:28:00.000-07:00This really is a fantastic, well-thought response ...This really is a fantastic, well-thought response to Hirshman. Thanks.Lumpyheadsmomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15448242506597812607noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-1150981312494986262006-06-22T06:01:00.000-07:002006-06-22T06:01:00.000-07:00Jane, Thanks! And I wrote this because Hirshman of...Jane, Thanks! And I wrote this because Hirshman offended me as a feminist guy!<BR/><BR/>April, Thanks, and you're exactly right about the logical path. It seems hard to believe that Hirshman is so clueless about class issues, but that's what it seems; otherwise she is just out and out classist.<BR/><BR/>Daddy in strange land, thanks for the link at your blog. I appreciate your comments, I'll check out your post, since unfortunately I've come to enjoy reading various critiques of Hirshman.<BR/><BR/>Jennifer, actually we're with you on this. I play up the kids part, because she focuses so much on denigrating exactly that, but we too moved out of the city to a simpler, fuller life. I love your point about living rather than "succeeding".Chiphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01503422107908380716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-1150962382257084842006-06-22T00:46:00.000-07:002006-06-22T00:46:00.000-07:00This is beautiful, Chip. I hadn't heard the phrase...This is beautiful, Chip. I hadn't heard the phrase "masculinist society" before but it's quite apt, esp. for refuting Hirshman. <BR/><BR/>My husband and I gave up all the things Hirshman lauds in order to live a fuller life in a small-ish town in Oregon. It had partly to do with the kids but was more about, you know, *living* instead of succeeding. I have always resented her stuff not as a feminist but as a human being trying to live a complete life, in which worldly success is but one component.Jennifer (ponderosa)https://www.blogger.com/profile/17712875613623664156noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-1150928363047965052006-06-21T15:19:00.000-07:002006-06-21T15:19:00.000-07:00Been reading this blog for a few months (via SeeLi...Been reading this blog for a few months (via SeeLight), great, important stuff, before and after the move to a group blog.<BR/><BR/>This is was a cogent, intelligent, heartfelt response to Hirshman, and way better than what I tried to say earlier today in the comments on this post:<BR/><BR/>http://lumpyhead.blogspot.com/2006/06/and-verily-i-wanted-to-throw-up.html<BR/><BR/>So after I read yours, I linked to you. :)<BR/><BR/>(BTW, my ID tag links to my solo SAHDblog, but I'm also part of the Rice Daddies collective at http://ricedaddies.blogspot.com fyi.)<BR/><BR/>Thank you!daddy in a strange landhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02838412669298860456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-1150915295815409212006-06-21T11:41:00.000-07:002006-06-21T11:41:00.000-07:00OUTSTANDING post on this subject. I have been fol...OUTSTANDING post on this subject. I have been following this issue with a sort of morbid curiosity, as I am 45 yrs old, female, never married, and always worked! Despite this, Ms. Hirshman manages to offend even ME with her "let's return to the bad old days of working for the man". If you take her argument along its logical path - we end up in the 1800's, with a kind of "Upstairs, Downstairs" kind of culture, where those with mere AA or BA degrees, or NO degree, are wiping the asses of the elite because to wipe the shit off of one's own ass is simply beneath those with an elite education.<BR/><BR/>Ms. Hirshman is a kind of 1950's "Company Man" in drag!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-1150913726266101342006-06-21T11:15:00.000-07:002006-06-21T11:15:00.000-07:00Right on!It's great to hear from a guy on this; in...Right on!<BR/><BR/>It's great to hear from a guy on this; in some ways it's a perfect refutation of Hirshman.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com