tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post4919146209997789943..comments2023-11-02T09:08:09.242-07:00Comments on <i>Daddy Dialectic</i>: Supernanny (and my dog)Jeremy Adam Smithhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11733669114207985920noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-22902739818260888012007-10-13T02:33:00.000-07:002007-10-13T02:33:00.000-07:00r@d@r and Chicago Pop actually say the same thing....r@d@r and Chicago Pop actually say the same thing. We must make sure that the standards our kids are expected to conform to are realistic, fair, and humane. If our rules are arbitrary, inhumane, or overly strict, or if there are simply too sodding many of them, then we as parents have failed. Not the kid. In some cases rebellion is a proof that the kid is actually SANE.<BR/><BR/>We really need to define what we mean by "misbehaviour". There are people out there who seriously mistake ANY sign of frustration as uttered by a small child for "misbehaviour". We have to protect society from our kids' misbehaviour, and we have to protect our kids from some people's opinions. Sometimes there ARE situations when the only fair thing you can say to someone complaining about your weeping child is "tough shit". (Or a polite equivalent thereof.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-56005694844669766602007-10-12T11:25:00.000-07:002007-10-12T11:25:00.000-07:00I would add further that, based on my experience a...I would add further that, based on my experience as a University educator, and the experiences of my colleagues in higher education and in university health services, who deal constantly with young adults, there is actually very little support for the idea that the present generation of college-aged people has been turned into either passive corporate automata, or politically quietist "authoritarian personalities." These are phobias that originated in the New Left 40 years ago -- and had some degree of worthiness in helping to understand the experience of fascism even earlier in the century -- but they do not apply to today's reality. <BR/><BR/>That reality is that your average college student is more narcissistic, demanding, with higher expectations of education as a commodity that is being purchased, accustomed to far greater financial and emotional support from parents regarding life-choices well into and beyond the college years; and one that is, quite contrary to the vision of a Fritz Lang worker-drone shuffling into the factory, in fact proving much more difficult than ever to assimilate to the work-discipline of modern corporate life. <BR/><BR/>The world does not revolve around me; nor does it revolve around my child. The absence of a structure of expectations for civil behavior and respect for others delays this lesson, to the detriment of the child and society. The sooner she learns that that we live with others, the better. It is perhaps the first rule, from which all others must follow: the reality principle.chicago pophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17055796523227869734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-53271056611865776952007-10-12T08:41:00.000-07:002007-10-12T08:41:00.000-07:00To r@d@r,It seems to me that part of what a parent...To r@d@r,<BR/><BR/>It seems to me that part of what a parent should be doing is teaching his/her bored child that there are appropriate ways to relieve that boredom when in a restaurant (e.g., coloring quietly, trading stories around the family, or even screaming on the inside vs. the outside) and surrounded by other people who are looking (and paying)to relax and enjoy themselves there. <BR/><BR/>Not only does this encourage kids initiate creative solutions to the boredom problem (which seems like it would make them less likely to become passive automatons), but it also fosters an awareness of how to be considerate of others, even if you are bored to death. In my book, that makes it possible for us to live civilly with each other.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-38050221940839315862007-10-12T06:10:00.000-07:002007-10-12T06:10:00.000-07:00A few points of clarification, as I sit here polis...A few points of clarification, as I sit here polishing my jack-boots and snapping my horse-whip, throwing bloody T-Bone steaks to my pack of German shepherds: I won't argue with anyone that Supernanny is Superficial, (Kohn), that some of her techniques are questionable if not perhaps wrong (Kohn and r@d@r and loads of people on the Right as well as the Left). That's all quite fair, and I neglected to emphasize all those points in this essay. In fact, there has never been a historically stable model of how to parent; the equivalent of self-help parenting manuals go back hundreds of years in the West, at least. I'm speaking from the perspective of the parent of a <1 year old child, in which case the analogy to dog behavior -- no insult in my book at all, as there are loads of quite liberal dog owners -- is immediately apparent. The role of reason in parenting obviously becomes more important for older toddlers.<BR/><BR/>But where I'll stick to my guns is in the following: there's a lot of room, I think, between "rules" and "tyranny"; discipline and reason are not mutually exclusive (in fact, reason requires rules of thought, i.e., logic, which is a form of intellectual discipline); and I think it's extremely difficult to map politics directly on to parenting practices. Blurring these distinctions, as Kohn does in the piece Jeremy linked to, is rhetorically satisfying, but empirically muddling. <BR/><BR/>The issue of boredome and lack of free play that r@d@r brings up -- for kids or adults, for him and for me -- is a big issue in the social science I've read that tries to explain what I do think is an uptick in child misbehavior, among white middle classes, at least. As an aside, most of the neighbors on my block are black, and I can guarantee you that among them there is no doubt whatsoever about the value of firm rules and expectations in the raising of children. This debate is highly conditioned along racial lines.<BR/><BR/>But let's assume that politics and the tendency towards authoritarianism/totalitarianism DO map onto rule-based child-rearing. <BR/>My wife and I should vote Republican, which we don't. We should be socially conservative, which we aren't. In fact, we are both Jewish, which is the world's most rule-based culture if ever there was one, and yet like most American Jews, are deeply suspicious of political authority for obvious political reasons. That contradiction in and of itself should be enough to disprove the assertion that rule-following in domestic life leads to political submission in public life.<BR/><BR/>And, as I mentioned above, loads of dog trainers are Democrats!chicago pophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17055796523227869734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-91432178005283586852007-10-11T21:28:00.000-07:002007-10-11T21:28:00.000-07:00okay, please bear with me, i'm gonna cut loose a l...okay, please bear with me, i'm gonna cut loose a little here...speaking as a parent, i'm a big fan of kohn, and i also happen to find supernanny's biases - such as her stated belief that breastfeeding past six months is harmful - to be retro, unscientific and in any case annoying. but aside from all that, i feel a reaction to all this talk of a return to obedience, and analogizing children to pets. as recently as the 50's children were expected to be seen and not heard, to not speak until spoken to, etc. we can thank that notion of behavior, along with the pseudo-psychology of skinner, and our cradle-to-grave indoctrination to be loyal consumers, for our current obedient acquiescence to totalitarianism. it's very fashionable to blame the 60's for everything, but the real reason kids are out of control these days isn't lack of discipline - it's boredom, and our dutiful enforcement of a culture that requires it in order to make us all good employees. when i see a kid screaming in a restaurant, i don't wince and wish his parents would reel him in - inside i am screaming with that child, and feel the urge to shout, "me too, i'm bored out of my fucking skull by this restaurant and all the boring grownups in it, too." sorry to be so contrarian and unreasonable, but there it is.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-63384567558020187092007-10-10T19:45:00.000-07:002007-10-10T19:45:00.000-07:00For a mostly opposite viewpoint, see this essay by...For a mostly opposite viewpoint, see <A HREF="http://www.alfiekohn.org/parenting/supernanny.htm" REL="nofollow">this essay by Alfie Kohn</A>: "If you can bear to sit through them, the nanny programs provide a fairly reliable guide for how not to raise children. They also offer an invitation to think about the pervasiveness of pop-behaviorism and our hunger for the quick fix."Jeremy Adam Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11733669114207985920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23363296.post-5449010198788383252007-10-10T16:51:00.000-07:002007-10-10T16:51:00.000-07:00I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed how simi...I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed how similar raising small children is to training a dog.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02179403544495148083noreply@blogger.com